Disputatio:Membrum

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I don't understand the second sentence. Anyway membrum seems wrongly defined here. Its usual equivalent is English "limb". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:04, 3 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As for membrum, the titles of all our article on organs of the body are of the form X (membrum), so I'm guessing that's the right word. Yes, a discretiva should be created eventually. Pantocrator 20:26, 3 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The page discussed here never reached stipula status and was deleted. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:08, 16 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to redirect this to Membrum and create an article there for English "limb". I would be adding a Nota bene that membrum may also mean organ (latin viscus). Your concerns are appreciated. --Jondel (disputatio) 20:28, 15 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, as I'm not now active here. Do what you need to fix it although I don't quite understand what you're proposing. In any case I'd think membrum should be a discretiva including the pages titled Membrum ..., as well as viscus. Pantocrator (disputatio) 13:46, 16 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have therefore moved this disputatio page. Jondel, you are now free to create the page Membrum (=limb). I think you are right: this is the basic meaning of the word. I think Pantocrator is right too -- there should also be a discretiva page (not an NB). There are several other potential meanings. Whether "viscus" is one of those meanings I am not sure. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:06, 16 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your inputs Andrew and Pantocrator. The membrum -limb is about to be created. Eventually discretivas and some nota bene are to be created. --Jondel (disputatio) 20:39, 18 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, Jondel, but I can't understand your footnote. Maybe others do? Or maybe you could explain here in English what you are trying to say?

And I still haven't found evidence that membrum can be a synonym of viscus. My dictionary suggests that they are (almost) opposites: membrum can be almost any external bodily feature but viscus is an internal bodily organ. So what is your source for this?

Also I don't see any evidence that "extremum" has this meaning, so I've asked for a source for that. Sorry to be a nuisance :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:52, 19 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There was a debate that membrum meant "Organum/Organ"(originaly Greek organon, which you probably know) which in Latin to English meaning is ('organ')musical instrument a couple of years ago. In its evolution to mean an internal organ it came to mean an inflatable organ containing liquid, i.e. a bladder. Anyway, even here in the latin wiki there are a lot or articles using membrum as internal organ (viscus), for which I made the necessary links. Just to clarify of course, this article is about 'limb'. Let me check now both the English organ and Latin membrum in my Traupman.--Jondel (disputatio) 18:22, 21 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Apud Traupman(L->E), membrum:

member,organ,limb,genital,part,(others, irrelevant).--Jondel(disputatio) 18:36, 21 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for checking, Jondel. Since the English word "organ" is used as a euphemism for "penis" (and Latin "membrum" similarly), I was suspicious of some confusion here. But apparently it's not that: Traupman must have had some other reason for giving this gloss. But whether, when he wrote "organ", he would have back-translated that term as "viscus", we still don't know! The English word "organ" itself has several meanings: "viscus" does not cover it all.So, sorry, you haven't proved that membrum = viscus, or even that Traupman thnought it did. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:57, 22 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Traupman isn't the only one: the Oxford Latin Dictionary also gives "organ" among the glosses for "membrum". But I haven't yet seen any citations of real Latin in which membrum could be replaced by viscus without changing the meaning. When I do see one, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:44, 22 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Membrum as internal organ (viscus) in the latin wiki itself

I had to change the link of (and look at the lemma) Thymus (membrum), Apparatus digestorius(look at membrum here), Tonsilla palatina(membrum is ok here?) , Os (anatomia ossis) (bones?). I'm simply conforming to the usage in these articles.--Jondel (disputatio) 18:49, 21 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I get it. Thanks again. Well, Vicipaedia isn't a reliable source: we can't assume that our wiki-ancestors all wrote good Latin. In this case they may have been using Traupman and assuming (like you above) that when Traupman wrote "organ" he meant "viscus". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:57, 22 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Extremum

I looked in the English dictionary for "Limb" and came up with Extremity. I looked under the E->L for Extremity and came up with Extremitas and Extremum. Since Membrum and Extremum are so similar in form I entered the latter in the desription.--Jondel (disputatio) 18:28, 21 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Articulus extremus is OK/better? Some changes were made.--Jondel (disputatio) 20:49, 21 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your method misled you here (I'd say). If you are listing the meanings of "membrum", and you go as far as trying to render in Latin the various meanings of English "limb", you have fallen into error. Languages don't work like that.

"Articulus" (English joint) is one of the bodily parts that could be called a "membrum", I think. I don't see any reason for adding "extremus".

But luckily, Jondel, we don't need any article listing all the possible meanings of "membrum". That's a job for Victionarium. So, definitely let's not search Latin-English dictionaries for glosses and then try to judge how to turn those glosses back into Latin! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:57, 22 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I made a very simple first sentence, not touching the rest. I took out the note about "viscus" because, sorry, I still don't understand what it was trying to say. I also took out "articulatus extremus", with the reference to Traupman, because I'm sure he didn't use that phrase. I think "artus" is a reasonable Latin synonym for "membrum" in this sense, but if others disagree, please change again!

This page is about "membrum" = limb. There is no real need to cite a dictionary for this (I'd say) because this is the first meaning of the word in all dictionaries I've seen. If we want to, however, we can cite C. T. Lewis et C. Short (1879). A Latin Dictionary. Oxoniae: Oxford University Press. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:40, 22 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We might also (and preferably) quote Cicero: "animal omne, ut vult, ita utitur motu sui corporis, prono, obliquo, supino, membraque, quocumque vult, flectit, contorquet, porrigit, contrahit eaque ante efficit paene, quam cogitat" (div. 1.120); and "membrorum, id est partium corporis, alia videntur propter eorum usum a natura esse donata, ut manus, crura, pedes, . . . . alia quasi ad quendam ornatum, ut cauda pavoni, plumae versicolores columbis, viris mammae atque barba" (fin. 3.18). It's clear that the primary meaning of membrum is 'movable and/or visible part of the body'. Other meanings such as 'room' (as part of a house) are natural metaphorical extensions of the basic meaning. Neander (disputatio) 14:04, 22 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks -- I forgot the "room" sense and have now added it at Membrum (discretiva).

Cicero expresses it rather well :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:53, 22 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Extremitas does appear in Pliny: "nec quorum [febrium] accessiones cum frigore extremitatum fient"; "ulcera difficilia in extremitatibus corporis sanat cum vino subfervefactum" (book 23). But I think this is in the same meaning as English, i.e. hands and feet, not arms and legs. So it might be mentioned here, but not as a direct synonym of membrum. Extremum, however, is wrong; when Traupman gave that I imagine he was translating the other meaning of English extremity, i.e. "end, furthest point", e.g. "the extremity of the peninsula" or "the extremity of the violence". Lesgles (disputatio) 16:29, 22 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bene habet. Thank you Andrew, Neander and Lesgles for your involvement and guidance. It should be noted that membrum is popularly used in the sense of 'organ' in this wiki though.--Jondel (disputatio) 18:49, 24 Martii 2014 (UTC)[reply]