Disputatio:Pteridophytum nidularium
Definitely not a non stipula
[fontem recensere]What's chiefly lacking is a link supporting the name (or indeed any other external link or reference). For "Pteridophytum nidarium" Google gives only five results, all of which seem to be Vicipaedia or mirror sites.
Necesse erit nomen e nexu vel citatione bibliographica corroborare: apud Google quinque tantum paginas reperio, et omnes sunt "specula" Vicipaediae. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:23, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- The phrase doesn't require support from a link, as, despite its shape, it's not a binomen: it's merely a translation of the English phrase "bird's-nest fern"; as the definition says, it's a commune nonnullarum specierum nomen 'common name of several species'. The word pteridophytum is of course exceedingly well attested for 'fern', and nidus is exceedingly well-attested for '(bird's) nest'. The Latin name of the birdnest milkvetch, Astragalus nidularius, gives us the adjective for nidus. So what's the problem? IacobusAmor 14:07, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- Well, we are supposed to cite reliable sources, and it's one of the things we demand for a stipula. I know, I know, you can cite thousands of pages that don't. Anyway I have added three citations now, so it's definitely a stipula. Almost a pagina mensis in fact. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:22, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- It should be italicized, because it's a phrase being cited as itself. See the contrast:
- Blablabla is a thing.
- Blablabla is the name of a thing.
- As a rule (in the United States), words cited as words are italicized; people unaccustomed to setting texts into type will tend to put them in quotation marks. A way of getting around the italics, if they're truly unattractive, is to alter the definition, from the shape of
- Blablabla is the name of certain things
- to the shape of
- Blablabla is any of certain things. IacobusAmor 14:32, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- We don't normally italicise phrases in a Vicipaedia lemma. But is this phrase and grouping accepted in any other languages apart from English? If not, I suggest we move this to Bird's nest fern (with the lemma in italics as a foreign word or phrase). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:35, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- Well, German has no trouble speaking of the Nestfarn. Nor does French, in its article on Asplenium nidus, about which it says "On l'appelle aussi fougère nid d'oiseau." Nor does Dutch, in an article beginning "De nestvaren of vogelnestvaren" ('the nest fern or bird's-nest fern'). Nor does Indonesian, whose lemma Paku sarang burung is a compound of the words paku, a kind of fern, and sarang burung, a bird's nest. ¶ If Vicipaedia has a rule against not translating phrases each element of which exists in the form of an attested Latin term (on the ground that a Latin attestation of the whole phrase doesn't exist), the rule should be abrogated, as it can run counter to the practice of other languages, and of language in general. IacobusAmor 16:47, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that information makes me a lot less enthusiastic about this Latin title. The French, German, Dutch and Indonesian terms seem to have different meanings from the English one: they all are applied to Asplenium nidus only (according to your links). So why should we take what seems to be a special English meaning of "Bird's nest fern" -- ignoring the French, German, Dutch and Indonesian meanings -- and translate the English term into Latin? Aren't we being Anglocentric, as well as making up Latin terminology on the hoof? What we're describing here is not "Pteridophytum nidularium" (for which no previous use has been cited) but "Bird's-nest fern". "Pteridophytum nidularium" is a really nice phrase, but it ought to be in parentheses after the lemma and not highlighted as if it were an established Latin term. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:14, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- We're not being Anglocentric. Of a different species, Asplenium australasicum, the Spanish wiki says "Su nombre común es helecho "nido de pájaro" por su forma." That species, like Asplenium nidus, is called fougère nid d'oiseau in French and, as the English wiki confirms, bird's-nest fern in English. Easily available evidence proves that the concept of "bird's-nest fern" (howsoever expressed in multiple languages) covers more than one species, but not the whole genus of Asplenium. The concept deserves its own article, under its own name. IacobusAmor 15:23, 24 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- OK, OK. Sorry to be fussy. I am always suspicious of those so-called "common" botanical names (which so often means "English and not common at all"). I think our article ought (eventually) to take on board the fact that the phrase exists in several languages with meanings that wholly or partly overlap. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:43, 24 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- We're not being Anglocentric. Of a different species, Asplenium australasicum, the Spanish wiki says "Su nombre común es helecho "nido de pájaro" por su forma." That species, like Asplenium nidus, is called fougère nid d'oiseau in French and, as the English wiki confirms, bird's-nest fern in English. Easily available evidence proves that the concept of "bird's-nest fern" (howsoever expressed in multiple languages) covers more than one species, but not the whole genus of Asplenium. The concept deserves its own article, under its own name. IacobusAmor 15:23, 24 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that information makes me a lot less enthusiastic about this Latin title. The French, German, Dutch and Indonesian terms seem to have different meanings from the English one: they all are applied to Asplenium nidus only (according to your links). So why should we take what seems to be a special English meaning of "Bird's nest fern" -- ignoring the French, German, Dutch and Indonesian meanings -- and translate the English term into Latin? Aren't we being Anglocentric, as well as making up Latin terminology on the hoof? What we're describing here is not "Pteridophytum nidularium" (for which no previous use has been cited) but "Bird's-nest fern". "Pteridophytum nidularium" is a really nice phrase, but it ought to be in parentheses after the lemma and not highlighted as if it were an established Latin term. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:14, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- Well, German has no trouble speaking of the Nestfarn. Nor does French, in its article on Asplenium nidus, about which it says "On l'appelle aussi fougère nid d'oiseau." Nor does Dutch, in an article beginning "De nestvaren of vogelnestvaren" ('the nest fern or bird's-nest fern'). Nor does Indonesian, whose lemma Paku sarang burung is a compound of the words paku, a kind of fern, and sarang burung, a bird's nest. ¶ If Vicipaedia has a rule against not translating phrases each element of which exists in the form of an attested Latin term (on the ground that a Latin attestation of the whole phrase doesn't exist), the rule should be abrogated, as it can run counter to the practice of other languages, and of language in general. IacobusAmor 16:47, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- We don't normally italicise phrases in a Vicipaedia lemma. But is this phrase and grouping accepted in any other languages apart from English? If not, I suggest we move this to Bird's nest fern (with the lemma in italics as a foreign word or phrase). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:35, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)
- Blablabla is any of certain things. IacobusAmor 14:32, 23 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)