Disputatio:Sophrologia

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Legi annotationem tuam. Non dixi sententiam ex Anglice resciptam esse. Quamquam Latinam tuam intellego bene, sententiam (vide infra) sensum non intellegi. Sententiam legere in Anglice conatus sum, quo facilius sententiam intellegerem.

"ut excolat ex cruciatu mentis corporisque huiusmodi dolor natalis per requiem et contemplationem et meditationem.

Translationes meae:

1: To improve from suffering of mind and body, especially certain kinds of natal pain through rest, contemplation and meditation?

2: So that certain kinds of natal pain improve from suffering of mind and body through rest, contemplation and meditation?

Estne dolor natalis subiectum sententiae? "So that pain may improve from suffering of mind and body"? Sensum hunc intendisti? Rex tremendae majestatis (disputatio) 04:04, 4 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Salve Rex, Gratias tibi ago implicante opera mea! Non peritus quoquo sum. Nam velim esse fidelis versione germanice, quae intelligo ut infra anglice et redire velim latinam ut :

relaxation technique that is derived from Indian yoga and physical and mental discomfort, such. B. natal pain, to improve through relaxation, contemplation and meditation. id est (Entspannungstechnik, die vom indischen Yoga abgeleitet ist und körperliche und geistige Beschwerden, z. B. Geburtsschmerzen, durch Entspannung, Kontemplation und Meditation bessern will.)
eg 1: Derived from Indian Yoga and ~~To improve~~ from suffering of mind and body, such as natal pain, and to improve through relaxation~~rest~~, contemplation and meditation .--Jondel (disputatio) 05:27, 4 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Salve, I’ll write in English to save time. The sentence is saying that the practice itself is derived from yoga and from suffering. Sophrology arises out of suffering. Do you mean that suffering is part of the therapy? I doubt that is what you mean. I am sure you mean that the practice leads one out of suffering. I'm afraid the sentence makes no sense in either Latin or English. It actually made more sense before you changed it, but even then it still needed some minor improvement.

I'm sure you meant this: A relaxation technique that is derived from Indian yoga, and attempts to alleviate the suffering of mind and body, especially natal pain, through relaxation, contemplation and meditation.

Pleasure is part of the experience of eating chocolate. But it does not make any sense to write:"Socolata deducta e tostis Theobromatis nucleis et ex voluptate mentis corporisque". "chocolate is derived from the roasted seeds of the cocoa bean and from pleasure of mind and body!”.

Perhaps we could say something like this:

...et deductum a Yoga Gangetica: Sophrologia est ars in qua qui dolorem mentis corporisque excolere vult requiete, contemplatione et meditatione utitur.

aut:

ars in qua homo curandus contemplatione, meditatione et requiete utitur uti mentis corporisque dolor sublevetur.

Of course, don't use these examples because I wrote them quickly and they probably have mistakes.

Rex tremendae majestatis (disputatio) 03:21, 5 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ok, l agree in fact l might include your examples almost verbatim. l will be making the prescribed changes. Your latin, like 'sublevetur ' etc, is also very enlightening.--Jondel (disputatio) 05:32, 5 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jondel, the Latin does not completely make sense. The Latin must be readable or it deserves to be marked down. The sentence I wrote, which does mention the natal pain, was understandable.

...uti dolor mentis corporisque sublevetur. Quod artificium praesertim ad dolorem natalem alleviandum adhibetur. so that pain of mind and body may be alleviated. The practice is especially employed to alleviate natal pain.

Rex tremendae majestatis (disputatio) 02:06, 6 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Where do you et alleviandum /b.alleviated which means removes the pain?' improve'-can imply 'alleviate + heal'. The German from the source is 'improve'.--Jondel (disputatio) 05:13, 6 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

editis--published.eg Some scientific studies have also been published in these countries;In diesen Ländern sind auch einige wissenschaftliche Studien dazu publiziert worden; (One or the other of these sentences:) In his quoque terris aliqua editis scientifici momenti sunt ad eam:(OR) Quaedam operae scientiae quoquo editae sunt in his terris ad id;---Jondel (disputatio) 05:13, 6 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You want a literal translation of the German? You never indicated to me that that was the goal. You prefer "improve" to "alleviate"? Well, you easily could have replaced the gerundive with emendandum, curandum, medendum, sanandum, consanandum etc, rather than deleting my additions with no explanation. There are still few errors in certain parts of the text.

Rex tremendae majestatis (disputatio) 05:40, 6 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rex, you seem peeved and l apologize. l do hope Jean and you continue to be involved. There was an explanation at the history :"Pls see nota verbis at discussion." It's not so much a preference as a fidelity to the source. Please do correct the latin. The meaning/definitions however need to be faithful to the source. I would like to incorporate 'emendum'. But first I will place the German and English versions below, tomorrow.--Jondel (disputatio) 16:03, 6 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Emendum means "to be purchased". Your sentence "uti ex cruciatu mentis corporisque huiusmodi dolor natalis(nisus) emendum sit" does not make sense. Rex tremendae majestatis (disputatio) 10:53, 7 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is good that you spotted. I meant to place emendandum.--Jondel (disputatio) 23:04, 7 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can I suggest that we use something like "get better", Rex? This way, it becomes logically and includes all the meanings, eg alleviate, cure etc.--Jondel (disputatio) 01:45, 8 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rex, hello. Can I suggest convalescatur instead of curatur ?--Jondel (disputatio) 23:49, 10 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No. Convalesco has no passive form. Have a look at this conjugation table: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/convalesco#Latin Never invent words that do not exist. Rex tremendae majestatis (disputatio) 00:02, 11 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

'convalitus sit'--Jondel (disputatio) 00:30, 11 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The 'convalescatur ', by the way, can be found in 'De hereditatis jacentis natura' by Hugo Schnitzler.--Jondel (disputatio) 00:35, 11 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We are also misinterpreting,e.g. inventing since the original does not say 'to get cured' but 'to get better' .--Jondel (disputatio) 00:35, 11 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I thought we already established that the english text was only a guide. An exact translation is not necessary. Besides the english text is not good.

"Convilatus sit" is the perfect subjunctive passive of convalo. It doesn't belong in this particular sentence. Look at the conjugation table of convalo: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/convalo#Latin Rather than me telling you the answer, why don't you figure out which tense is really meant to be used. Grammar book pdf for free: http://www.marianhs.org/userfiles/1076/Classes/19465/Latin%20III%20and%20IV%20Grammar%20Book.pdf

Rex tremendae majestatis (disputatio) 01:13, 11 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the pdf and sorry for the misunderstanding. The English is not good, you are correct because 'bessern' can also be translated as get better.--Jondel (disputatio) 01:33, 11 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How about "ad convalescendum" ?--Jondel (disputatio) 01:53, 11 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ad convalescendum makes sense but you do not use it in an "ut/uti" clause. These are different constructions:

ut + subjunctive verb: uti curet

or

ad + accusative gerund or gerundive if there is a direct object: ad curandum

You use one, not both.

I notice you were unable to solve the question I asked before, i.e. which subjunctive tense would be suited with the "ut" in the article's sentence, for which you originally suggested the perfect tense (Convilatus sit). If you do not know the answer, you need to learn it. Rex tremendae majestatis (disputatio) 03:04, 11 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

notae verbis

--Jondel (disputatio) 06:12, 5 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

method/- ars,artificium,ratio
relaxation- requies
derive-deductus
Entspannungstechnik-relaxation technique,
wissenschaftliche Studien- editis scientifici momenti|(Quaedam) operae scientiae (quoquo) editae|-(Certain)scientific (also) studies-
körperliche und geistige Beschwerden, z. B. Geburtsschmerzen, durch Entspannung, Kontemplation und Meditation bessern will.=>physical and mental complaints, eg. B. natal pain, to improve through relaxation, contemplation and meditation.

Fons et versio Theodisca

Sophrologie (gr. sos „Gleichgewicht“, phren „Seele“ und logos „Lehre“) ist eine von dem kolumbianischen Neuropsychiater Alfonso Caycedo 1960 begründete Entspannungstechnik, die vom indischen Yoga abgeleitet ist und körperliche und geistige Beschwerden, z. B. Geburtsschmerzen, durch Entspannung, Kontemplation und Meditation bessern will.[1] Sie wird beschrieben als „Entspannungsmethode, die auf der Förderung des sophrologischen Bewusstseins, einem Zustand zwischen Schlaf und Wachsein, basiert“.[2]

Die Methode hat eine gewisse Verbreitung in Frankreich und der Schweiz[3] erfahren. In diesen Ländern sind auch einige wissenschaftliche Studien dazu publiziert worden; bisher gibt es dennoch keinen Wirksamkeitsnachweis nach den Kriterien der evidenzbasierten Medizin.

Eingesetzt wird die Sophrologie vor allem bei Beschwerden, die durch Stress und andere psychische Spannungen verursacht oder zumindest von diesen begleitet werden.

Versio Anglice

Sophrology (Greek sos "balance", phren "soul" and logos "doctrine") is one of the Colombian neuropsychiologist Alfonso Caycedo 1960 relaxation based techniques that is derived from Indian Yoga and physical and mental discomfort, such. B. natal pain, to improve through relaxation, contemplation and meditation. It is described as a "relaxation method based on the promotion of sophrological consciousness, a state between sleep and wakefulness." [2]

The method has been widely used in France and Switzerland [3]. Some scientific studies have also been published in these countries; yet there is no evidence of efficacy according to the criteria of evidence-based medicine.

Above all, sophrology is used for complaints caused or at least accompanied by stress and other psychological tensions.

Comment

I don't want to make things more difficult than they are, but remember that Wikipedia isn't a reliable source (even German Wikipedia). Hence translating from another Wikipedia can only be a start. A good article will be written from reliable sources -- including, of course, those used by other Wikipedias, if they are well chosen.

The English version given above is not that of the English Wikipedia (which at a first glance appears to be independent of the German). The first sentence above isn't good English, but I guess it helps. Notice, though, that you don't want to "improve" discomfort, you want to lessen or dispel or cure it.

There are errors in the etymology in this German text above which suggest that already depends on translation from another language (I can't guess which language). Greek sos is not a noun meaning "balance", it's an adjective meaning "safe", "whole". Greek phren means "midriff", "heart", "mind", it's not a normal term for "soul". Greek sophron (which looks as if it inspired the invented term "sophrology") means "prudent", "sensible", "self-controlled". [-- But I see that our Latin version is already more accurate than the German here, so that's good!] Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:44, 7 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To at least one reader, the English article hardly inspires confidence in the value of the subject. For a couple of years, its style was so amateurish that the first sentence read like this:

Ancient Greek [σῶς] error: {{lang}}: unrecognized language tag: greek (help) / [SOS] error: {{lang}}: text has italic markup (help) ("harmony"), [φρήν] error: {{lang}}: unrecognized language tag: greek (help) / [PHREN] error: {{lang}}: text has italic markup (help) ("mind"), and [-λογία] error: {{lang}}: unrecognized language tag: greek (help) / [-logia] error: {{lang}}: text has italic markup (help) ("study/science").

The text in the English wiki still needs work. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:01, 7 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The English above was translated ad hoc from the German wiki. The English wasn't meant to be of high quality, but to facilitate discussion. It is not from the English wikipedia. The German version was short enough to make it ideal for this Latin wikipedia. Agreed, with Iacobus, the text still needs work, as indicated as "Augenda". --Jondel (disputatio) 23:04, 7 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>Andrew:The English version given above is not that of the English Wikipedia (which at a first glance appears to be independent of the German). The first sentence above isn't good English, but I guess it helps. Notice, though, that you don't want to "improve" discomfort, you want to lessen or dispel or cure it.

Or convalese from it?--Jondel (disputatio) 01:42, 8 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Surely 'Geburtsschmerzen' is dolor puerperus vel dolor puerperii vel dolor laboris (puerperae) vel dolor parturitionis vel dolor partus or something similar? You get the idea: 'the pain(s) of childbirth'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 02:04, 8 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the 'Trauma of being born' is referred to here. eg. both men and women retain the memory trauma in their subconscious. --Jondel (disputatio) 02:49, 8 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Stress und andere psychische Spannungen

Hi @Iacobus, and others, could you suggest an alternative for " aliis laboriis? animiis?. "(psychological tension) . Thank you in advance.--Jondel (disputatio) 00:42, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Laboriis" and "animiis" don't exist as Latin words, unless I'm mistaken. I find it hard to devise a Latin translation of "psychological tension" that another reader would understand, and if you haven't achieved that, you haven't translated. Still thinking about it. Intentio would do for "tension", but intentio animi sounds positive rather than negative. In the 21st century "tension" is a negative thing that a shaman or psychologist has to alleviate. Possibly, then, strictura animi?

I see that "animiis" has just appeared in the text of Psychosis bipolaris. Some correction needed there. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:53, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Having had no idea what aliis laboriis animiis was trying to say, I didn't know how to say it differently. As Andrew has pointed out, laboriis and animiis are not Latin words. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:12, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jondel added these explanations in hidden text: "laboriis animiis." I guess mental sufferings might be "aegritudo (abl. aegritudine, abl. pl. aegritudinibus)"? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:06, 11 Iulii 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't aegritudo more like 'illness'? I'd guess that 'suffering' would get us back to dolor and angor and maybe miseria. For 'mental', Traupman has mente conceptus, and Cassell's recommends the genitive animi, ingenii, mentis. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:41, 11 Iulii 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, good point. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:27, 12 Iulii 2019 (UTC)[reply]

quereles

Hi Iacobus. I would appreciate it if you could guide me with the issue here? Would it help if I changed the 'caused-efficientibus' from ablative to accusative to agree with quareles=eg efficientes? --Jondel (disputatio) 00:43, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

??? Neither quereles nor quareles is a Latin word. What's it trying to say? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:14, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

querelas ? -complaints,accusative to agree with 'ob'. --Jondel (disputatio) 23:16, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

'sophrology is used for complaints caused by or at least....'

It IS a latin word : Cic. Q. Fr. 1, 2, 1, § 2 People of admiration or complaint of the the people('of the humans') Cic. Q. Fr. 1, 2, 1, § 2

https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=hWRDNb5oX5QC&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=hominum+vel+admiratio+vel+querela&source=bl&ots=LE7plj0zMk&sig=ACfU3U0qMlMs2Gi2Sm6rxbnzmdt7VaGBTQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCrdnosa7jAhXjDaYKHVaDAgoQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=hominum%20vel%20admiratio%20vel%20querela&f=false

>What's it trying to say?

It works/is effective for complaints.--Jondel (disputatio) 03:14, 12 Iulii 2019 (UTC)[reply]

uti

'in order that', artificium adhibetur uti dolor natalis sublevetur => the technique is applied in order that the (person) improves from the pain(trauma) of birth.--Jondel (disputatio) 02:25, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What about it? It says "the technique is employed so that natal pain be alleviated." Rex tremendae majestatis (disputatio) 02:41, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just a discussion Rex, about uti.--Jondel (disputatio) 23:12, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If dolor is your word, dolor natalis, being real pain (a cause of sorrow, not the sorrow itself) sounds like pain on the part of a woman in childbirth; if you're thinking of mental distress on the part of someone who was born, you may want angor or (if it's a longer-lasting state, according to Cicero, as reported in Cassell's) anxietas instead. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:22, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Angor and anxietas are excellent translations!! I will make the replacement soon.--Jondel (disputatio) 23:12, 14 Decembris 2018 (UTC)[reply]