Disputatio:Genshin Impact

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We are translating this page from English Wikipedia. Could anyone offer some help? ——170.64.205.7 14:15, 15 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for trying to contribute. This is an encyclopedia. If the game being describes exists, you need to give its real name, and link to its website or a source of information about it, otherwise we can't check that anything you say about it is true.

If you haven't learned any Latin, it is a waste of your time to try to write on Vicipaedia: it makes more sense to write in a language that you have learned.

If we can't check the claims made, and we can't understand the text, we will delete the article. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:27, 15 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Latinam studuimus, et nova nomina creare possumus sic non exstiterunt: haec pagina erit remota ad paginam "Impactus Allogenerum". 170.64.205.7 02:07, 16 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: in case it's unclear: the phrase "Latinam studuimus" is usually ungrammatical: studere means "pay attention to" and "be zealous for" and "concern oneself with" and "be interested in" and therefore takes the dative. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:25, 24 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Non omnia verba tua intellego. Vicipaedianus mos est nomina propria operum artis verbatim servare (e.g. Citizen Kane, The Third Man, et cetera). Ergo haec pagina “Genshin Impact” appellanda est. --Grufo (disputatio) 04:30, 16 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lemma reficiebamus. Gradus verus est –6, quia verba haud intellegi possunt. Signum augendorum impositum est. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:53, 16 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomines creata potest, quae Lingua Sinica Classicalis. --170.64.221.255 07:28, 24 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, in case it's unclear: in the phrase "Nomines creata potest," each word is wrong. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:25, 24 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomina creata possunt. 170.64.214.179 11:28, 30 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Nomina creari possunt" would be correct as a Latin sentence ... but an unwise policy when writing an encyclopaedia. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:47, 30 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is wrong with "uter dominat unus archon per elementum" to mean "each of which an archon rules by element"? 170.64.204.167 03:23, 9 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is wrong with it? (1) The English is unintelligible. (2) In the Latin, uter is in the wrong case, and dominat is in the wrong verbal system (should be deponent). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:02, 8 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Allogenerum?

Quid significat vocabulum “allogenerum”? --Grufo (disputatio) 23:47, 19 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Genitivus plurals nominis Allogenes (hellenice ἀλλογενής). --170.64.218.143 14:07, 20 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that case I think "allogenerum" is an error, adopting the paradigm of Latin "genus -eris" without a good reason. But I have been known to be wrong :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:56, 20 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. My doubts have only multiplied:

In which way does “Genshin” translate as “of the Allogenes”?
The declination of adjectives derived from Latin genus (-eris, n.) is highly irregular. The latter can generate first-class adjectives when the prefix is an adverb, as in bigener_(en) (-era, -erum). It can generate second-class adjectives when the prefix is a preposition, as in degener_(en) (gen. -eris). I do not know cases in which the prefix is a Greek word.
Things get even more complicated when instead of genus we form an adjective from gignere. There we have highly irregular first-class adjectives like indigena_(en) (gen. -ae) and other similar ones.
Another group of adjectives is formed from Greek γίγνομαι instead of the Latin cognate gigno. There we can have words like epigonus (from ἐπῐ́γονος), words like heterogeneus_(en) (from ετερογενής), and words like eugenius (but also eugeneus – from εὐγενής).
The Greek word ἀλλογενής is clearly formed from γίγνομαι, for which no deterministic translation exists; the most regular outcome possible however is *allogeneus (-a, -um), like heterogeneus – see previous point.
Even after demonstrating that Genshin means “of the Allogenes” (I am waiting for that), writing Genshin is to be preferred to writing “of the Allogenes” (i.e. Allogeneorum in Latin), because if the English title keeps Genshin I don't see why a Latin translation should remove a foreign word for replacing it with another foreign word (a Greek one this time).
By the way, in which language does Genshin mean “of the Allogenes”?

Given the multiplication of my doubts I will restore the {{Dubium}} template. --Grufo (disputatio) 03:39, 21 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quaerite apud Bingem.

https://bing.com/search?q=Impactus+Allogenerum

https://bing.com/search?q=Impactus+Allogeneorum

Binx respondit https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Latin-Based_Language

--170.64.218.143 05:48, 21 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I don't see reliable sources. --Grufo (disputatio) 06:09, 21 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Grufo means that wikis, and any website to which the passing stranger can contribute, are not reliable sources. Reliable sources are peer-reviewed in some sense, not self-published in some sense. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:33, 21 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are reliable sources. Genshin Impact Fandom is only editable by Fans. --170.64.221.255 07:06, 24 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lingua Sinica Japonicaque: 原神 --170.64.221.255 07:16, 24 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest distinguishing the two issues:

Improving the text of the page
Deciding on its name

It is unsafe in some jurisdictions for contributors to Wikipedia to use a named account. I do not know if that is relevant here. Without a named account it is easy to edit Vicipaedia, as you are doing, but it is quite difficult to persuade Vicipaedians to change general guidelines, which are the result of consensus among long term users and have made Vicipaedia successful.

If you want to improve the Latin text of the page, that will save it from deletion. Go ahead. You will not be wasting your time. If you want to work on other pages, go ahead. You risk a temporary block if your anonymous edits contravene general guidelines. If you want to discuss general guidelines, you can: in this case the relevant page to open a discussion is Disputatio Vicipaediae:De nominibus propriis. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:10, 24 Martii 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"原神" (Yuan Shen) is Chinese name, and Genshin is the name of "原神" in Japanese pronounciation. Therefore, we can translate it by Chinese meaning. "原" (Yuan) means "original", and "神" (Shen) means "god" or "with magical power" in English. That is the meaning of Genshin, I do not think it is "Allogenerum". 142.181.163.59 07:06, 8 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am too foreign to the game and Asian languages for venturing into interpretations. Your version however would make the current translation of the title in brackets become something like “ictus primigenii dei” or “ictus primigeniae potestatis”. Depending on the actual meaning you want to attribute to “impact”, you can also replace ictus with impetus, or effectus, or frux. Having a Japanese word followed by an English word however makes things slightly more complicated concerning the possibility of having a translation. My two cents. --Grufo (disputatio) 11:40, 8 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

142.181.163.59 is me, I forgot to sing in before sending that comment. I am sure this is the name Genshin from, but if you ask me an authority resource, I am not sure wether I can find it out. This is a very common and popular analyze in Genshin community. And about Impact, that is a kind of Mihoyo's habit, Mihoyo's previous game Honkai Impact also use the same format. 崩坏 (Beng Huai) (means Collapse)'s Japanese pronouciation (Honkai) and the English word Impact as English translation. Or we can ignore "Impact" because the original Chinese name does not have the meaning of impact. Rainna la Grande (disputatio) 14:27, 8 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is another explanation of Genshin. In the game Prologue Act: III Ending Note, the Character Venti says:

In truth, every wielder of Vision is one who can attain godhood and ascend to Celestia. We call such people allogenes.

其实，每一位「神之眼」的拥有者，都是有资格成神的人，因此被称作「原神」，拥有登上天空岛的资格。(In Chinese)

Therefore, Genshin can be translated to allogenes in English. Rainna la Grande (disputatio) 16:30, 8 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are the purveyors of the game trying to make a connection with en:Allogenes? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 17:07, 8 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, maybe I did not export clearly.

In truth, every wielder of Vision is one who can attain godhood and ascend to Celestia. We call such people allogenes.

This is a sentence from the game Genshin Impact.

This word "allogenes" in this sentence is translated to "原神" (Yuan Shen) which is Genshin in Chinese version. Therefore, in the game, I think Genshin can also translated to allogenes in English. Rainna la Grande (disputatio) 18:22, 8 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What we put in brackets usually provides a translation of a title. If we say that Genshin means Allogenes, I believe it would not add much clarity and would be technically false. The word ἀλλογενής in Ancient Greek simply means “born elsewhere”, “foreign”. But I suspect that is not what the word here means. --Grufo (disputatio) 21:21, 8 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Verba barbara desiderata

Quare sunt verbae barbarae desideratae per Monstatum, Liguam et Fontanam? --170.64.228.105 09:42, 3 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tu es peritus vel perita huius ludi, sed credo nomina barbara esse Mondstadt, Líyuè, et Fontaine. Translationes Latinae sine fontibus – prasertim operum artis – delendae sunt (i.e.: ~~Monstatum~~, ~~Ligua~~, ~~Fontana~~, et cetera…). --Grufo (disputatio) 20:01, 3 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then... Why not latinize them as of real place names? Examples of Latinised names for countries or regions are:

Estonia (Estonian name Eesti, Dutch/German/Scandinavian name Estland, i.e. 'land of the Aesti')
Ingria (Finnish Inkerinmaa, German/Scandinavian Ingermanland, i.e. 'land of the Ingermans', the local tribe)
Livonia (German/Scandinavian name Livland', i.e. 'land of the Livs', the local tribe)
Eboracum was the Latinized name for the modern English city York, from the Common Brittonic name *Eburākon (place of the yew trees). The Common Brittonic language was spoken by the Celtic Britons and evolved into modern Welsh, Cornish and Breton languages.

170.64.202.232 06:27, 5 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't automatically latinize every city name, but only those for which there are sources. Moreover, in the specific case of this game, even though some places might be inspired by real cities, the authors wanted to leave a strong reference to what the names evoke, by leaving them in their original language. Therefore, imagining that one of the places of the game were called “Wien” and another were called “Paris”, we should write “Wien (Vindobonam memorans)”, or “Paris (Lutetiam memorans”) – or something along these lines. If the names had been instead “Paris” and “Vienna” (i.e. not each of them in its own language), latinizing them would have made some sense (but only since Paris and Vienna have known Latin names). --Grufo (disputatio) 12:08, 5 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

De Disputatione de nominibus propriis quemus Monstatum, Ligua, et Fontana; Inazuma, Sumeru, Natlan et Snezhnaya fiunt Latinae. --170.64.198.105 01:18, 25 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Non intellego quid dicas. Quid significet “quemus”? Et quid significare velis per verba “fiunt Latinae”? Pagina mihi videtur sic pessime scripta ut deletionem certam mereat. --Grufo (disputatio) 03:56, 25 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Genshin Impact has used Latin much in form of spells and Abyssal languages. Why not force or try Latinization lorewise in Vicipaedia? --170.64.204.167 03:50, 9 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't be a surprise if the Latin of those spells were a bit peculiar, as it might be in the original edition of the Harry Potter books. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:34, 9 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are now wasting our time and your own time. Anyone can start a website: if you want to start a website on which you "force" Latinization, or "try Latinization lorewise", you can do so. Vicipaedia is not the place for this activity. I propose to close this discussion. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:34, 9 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning

De: "uter dominat unus archon per elementum." means "each is ruled by one archon by element".)

No, it doesn't. :D IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:38, 9 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mechanici = pl. Mechanicus (=> en. mechanics). --170.64.198.105 01:19, 25 Aprilis 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Propositum: Personarum Liguae nomina ad transliterationem restituere

I discuss in English because I can express more clearly. If I have to use Latin, I will use.

I am Chinese, I know Chinese very much. I suggest to use previous way to teranslate Liyue Characters' name.

Firstly, there are many meanings or the names' meanings are controversial. For example, Keqing's name is combined by Ke(刻) and Qing(晴),Ke(刻) has these main meanings: 1. engrave; 2. sculpture; 3. adorn; 4. cut; 5. strict; 6. restrict; 7. remember' 8. 15 minutes; 9. a moment; 10. immedietly; 11. now; 12. unkind, mean; 13. urgent; 14. assiduous; 15. deep. And Qing(晴) has these main meanings: 1. clear weather; 2. stop raining; 3. (describing personality or mood) warm. Therefore, it is very complex to explain the names. And it is not accurate to translate Keqing to Clara Instans.

Secondly, although some last names has meaning, the last names should be transliterated. For example, we cannot translate the last name "Smith" to "Faber Ferrarius", we need to translate it to "Smithus". Therefore, it is also inappropriate to translate Yun Jin (云堇) to Viola Nubis. Rainna la Grande (disputatio) 23:42, 4 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, our policy is not to translate art works, so transliteration is the correct way to go. The only exception concerns first names (not surnames) for which there exists an established and accepted Latin tradition: these usually get automatically translated. So definitely not “Smithus”; but if someone is called “Giovanni” as first name we automatically render it as “Ioannes” or “Iohannes” (both are ok). Everything else should remain in the original language (unless the game itself provided Latin translations). --Grufo (disputatio) 03:30, 5 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re "we cannot translate the last name 'Smith' to 'Faber Ferrarius.'" But as Grufo points out, we do use attested translations of surnames. For example, Heinrich Schütz (1585–1672) called himself Henricus Sagittarius (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Heinrich-Schutz) because schütz in German means 'archer'. Similarly with Greek, Philipp Schwartzerdt (1497–1560) called himself Philippus Melanchthon (Μελάγχθων) because schwartzerdt in German means 'black earth'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:27, 5 Decembris 2024 (UTC)[reply]